Hawk G4 vs. Excaliber Ex 21

[Arcy]

Hi all,

My wife kindly pointed out this morning that Woodcraft has a one-day sale today which includes 10% off of scrollsaws, and if I want to replace my craigslist special now might be a good time. Who am I to argue? Unfortunately, I'm also really really really bad at impulse buying, and I'm not sure that Woodcraft has what I want.

I've been considering either a Hawk G4 or the Excaliber EX21, but outside of spec and manufacturer's claims I'm not sure of the differences. I have had a chance to use either.

The obvious:
The G4 is bigger in depth (26" vs 21") and in capacity (2 5/8" vs. 2")
The Excaliber has the fancy tilting system.
$400

My current saw is 16" and I've needed larger once in practice and several times in theory (before reworking the design to be smaller), but not yet as much as 21". I have run into clearance problem several times with compound cutting, so the extra half inch is very tempting.

Mostly I've been cutting puzzles and compound cutting. I've been experimenting and plan to do more with segmentation and intarsia. I don't do portraiture, but have been doing some fretworky pieces with interior cuts.

Is the Hawk's extra 5/8" capacity useful in practice or is wood that thick too difficult to cut straight anyway? (Or is this a funny measurement and the capacity isn't actually all that different?)

I haven't tried anything yet with the table tilted, but partially because I don't want to have to fight with my table to get it back in square if I throw it out. I want to try inlay, but I don't know if I'll love it or hate it or if tilting the blade rather than the table makes as much difference as the Excaliber ads claim.

Does the Excaliber's tilting blade make a huge difference when doing inlay or is it minor given a decent tilting table? (And other than inlay, is there anything else of significance that one cuts at an angle?)

Beyond that, Hawk has strong claims about lack of vibration ("Over 60% less vibration than other scroll saws, our 26” Ultra model included"). Both promise easy tensioning, blade changing, etc. Both allow topfeeding and appear to have very accessible controls.

Is there a significant difference between the two here or are they both in the stable-and-easy-enough-that-it-doesn't-matter range?

The EX30 is bigger than the Hawk, has the tilting mechanism, but is still a hair less expensive, but I don't know if there's a quality difference or just a marketing difference.

I am a bit concerned that there have been a number of people here reporting teething problems with Excalibers. Most have been made fixable via expert help, but I'm not sure if Woodcraft could supply that.

If you've run into such teething pains, how difficult was it to get them solved? Did it really require the expert help or was that just useful because it was available?

I like that the Hawk is made in North America.

Ultimately, I've noticed that everybody with either of these saws appears very satisfied (once past teething pains), but my mind doesn't like taking that as an easy way out I don't expect to be upgrading from whatever I do in the foreseeable future, so I don't want to pick one and then decide that the other was the one I really wanted.

The downside of either is I won't be able to blame my tools. The mistakes will all be on me!

Thanks,
Rob

Or maybe it'll come down to my liking red better than green. Honestly, I'll probably dither about it until the sale's over, and then wait a few months anyway

[wood-n-things]

Gosh I was just drooling cuz you have this conundrum of which of the two to get and then you mention you have a woodcraft near you. I'm jealous on all counts...LOL

I'll be interested to see if green beats out red or vice versa. The saga continues...LOL

btw where is Seattle-ish? I'm in East Wenatchee..

[Paul S WI]

I have very little experience with the Hawk G4. I do own a EX-21 and really enjoy its features. Table tilt vs Arm (blade) tilt was one of many factors which helped in my decision on the EX-21. Table and project are always flat with no gravity to fight. Less chance of errors.
Do you think you will have a need for a 26" throat depth? I also do compound cuts and have not used wood thickness over 2" - yet.
I have not experienced any problems with my Green machine.
When in doubt - get hands on experience on both machines. And if still in doubt - buy both!!

I was not aware that Woodcraft sold either of these!!?? I know they sell or sold Dewalt 788.

[turningnut]

I have the EX-21 and have had no problems other than my lack of knowledge with scrolling and scroll saws in general at the time I purchased it. (Many thanks to the people on this site for getting me on the right track) My saw basically came out of the box with no problems and no vibration. I have used the tilt and it is really nice to have your piece flat while cutting angles...nice feature.

Like Paul said, try both and then decide....good luck!

[Buzz]

I have never used an EX 21, but I have had 3 Hawks. I kept my bottom feed 26 and bought a G4. I never had any trouble with any of the 3 and would probably never try another saw. Adage: If it ain't broke, you can't fix it". As far as the cutting depth goes, I have never cut anything over 3/4" thick and I had a little trouble doing that well probably due to blade size and complexity of the cuts. I have, at times, found the 26" throat to be handy. But, again, that depends on your pattern preferences. I have found that the top feed of the G4 is really easy to get used to and I never have to look under the saw to insert blades or tighten the lower blade holder. As far as the vibration goes, I think that Hawk has that well under control. Hope this helps you make a decision. Be sure to let us know what you decide.

[JohnB]

G'day Rob,
I can't comment on the Hawk.
I have an Ex21 and it is a pretty good machine.
The tilting arm sold it to me and I'm not sorry. Bevel cuts are a breeze.

I had a few teething problems but have them sorted now.

[DaveG]

I have a 26" Hawk, not a G4, but it is a great saw. I also have an EX-21, which is equally great. Bottom line, they are both fine machines. You won't go wrong with either one of them.

Dave

[Rolf]

I have my G4 since April of 2005, Have never regreted the decission.
At the time I was looking at the Hegner and the Hawk I went with the Hawk for the following reasons.
The height under the arm gave me more room for my fat fingers, especially when I cut compound cut stuff where the wood is 1.5 to 2" thick, I can still put my finger on top of the wood behind the blade. That may not be a good habit but it is what I do..

The Top feeding was important to me, it took a bit of practice, but is now automatic.

The throat depth is an interesting thing, It has come in handy many times, the word art I just did comes to mind. But remmember this if you are cutting something that requires a 26 inch throat it will also stick out that same distance when you turn it. So you may have to go to the gym to get rid of the belly that might be in the way. I am getting good at sucking it in.

I am still waiting for someone in our club to buy an Excalibur and a Dewalt so that I can try them to compare.

[TheMediaBoy]

I've had an EX-21 since early December. I bought it from Woodcraft as an upgrade to a DeWalt and selected the EX-21 mainly because of the overwheming positive reviews from owners on this and other forums.

It has been a 'good' (not great) saw out of the box. I am disappointed with the blade holders and the blade tensioning system. Maybe my expectations were just a little too high. At almost twice the price of the DeWalt I was expecting almost two times the performance -- and that was just not my experience.

While sawing a week ago Sunday the saw spit out a loud metallic POP and started vibrating violently. So much in fact that the stand walking across the shop floor.

I almost exclusively cut portraits using #1 and 2/0 spiral blades, so it's not like the saw ever had much stress on it. Granted, it probably had over 200 hours of use on it, but surely the MTBF is higher than that.

That's the bad news. Now for the relatively good news.

I emailed Woodcraft Tech and Customer Service full well expecting that I would have to box up and ship the saw (at my expense) off to BFE for repairs. I'm pleased to say that Woodcraft immediately forwarded my email to their General International rep, who contacted me the very same day.

After a couple of days of going back and forth, General International is supposed to be shipping me a new EX-21 and want me to return the defective machine, at their cost, in the same shipping container. I say "supposed" because I haven't received it yet or even been sent a tracking number. (I'm a firm believer in the saying I'll believe it when I see it.)

All this being said, and hindsight being 20-20, if I had it to do all over I would likely have gone with the Hawk. It's very possible that my EX-21 experience is rare, but that rare perspective really changes when it happens to you.

[Janette]

I work at Woodcraft and spent Saturday scrolling on the EX21. I was disappointed. It could be the floor model wasn't set up properly but I found that there was quite a bit of vibration to it. Besides that - It was awkward for me to tension (snapped my fingers once or twice too). I did like the ease of squaring the table. If you do a lot of angle cuts - it's definitely nicer! I have a DeWalt at home and had looked forward to trying the EX. If I were to buy one today, I'd buy another DeWalt. For the month of March, Woodcraft have a deal - $549 and you get a free light and stand. From what I've seen, that seems like a pretty good price to me.