Poll: Laser vs. Scrollsaw Economics

[Scrolling Days]

This is a companion poll, of sorts, to Kim's Laser Cutter thread.

I've become interested in this topic after reading Kim's thread. I think there are two reasons for people who create things through craftsmanship. The first is to make money as a trade. The other is to utilize it as a channel to artistically express oneself and gain pride in accomplishment. I think the two reasons overlap, as most commercial craftspeople enjoy their trade as an art and not just as a means of profit.

Focusing on the first, group, however, I think it is interesting to reflect on the impact newer computer controlled laser cutters will have on the financial market of hand-made craft goods.

I think most here, myself included, will argue that hand-made crafts are superior to computer made items (whether it is fretwork made with a laser, or an apron, as Greybeard suggests, with a computer controlled pattern sewer). People who use computer devices might suggest that their's are superior, based on precision and lack of human error.

For the sake of having a meaningful poll, however, let's make an assumption:

Assumption: There is no difference in quality between computer generated and hand-made crafts.

Now, if that assumption were true, consumer pricing in regards to product competition would be based soley on the value customers put on something being "hand-made." There is no doubt that computer made products can be mass-produced more quickly and hence sold more cheaply. Therefore, how much higher of a fee can the hand-crafter charge and expect to receive?

[Forester21]

I don't like your assumption that the quality is the same. However, assuming so, you also have to consider the cost of the equipment - even though they can produce more, the lasers cost so much more - therefore, no difference in price.
imo

[Arcy]

I don't think there's a direct mapping. Also, you're showing a bias by leaving 0% off the poll

The crafter's goal is to make your assumption false: whether by workmanship, material choice, creativity, originality, etc.

The more expensive the item, the more unique it has to be and the higher the premium for hand-made. For inexpensive craft-fair items, there may be a small premium for hand-made, but many people won't care. For fine-art, there is value in uniqueness and mass-market "art" will have little value.

--Rob

[Max]

I was at a craft show last year and saw both good and bad work done on a laser. I think there are some lasers that are more superior than others, just as there are some scroll saws that perform better. Without much exposure to lasers, I would expect them to be more consistant. I think a scroll sawyer with a lot of experience can use a low-end saw and still produce quality work. But with a laser, the pattern maker is the artist. If I assume that there is no difference in the quality of work between scrolled and laser-cut work, then there would be no difference in pricing.

I have seen some laser-cut puzzles that are amazing, but when I see what some of "our" puzzlers cut, I see uniqueness in their work that make it one-of-a-kind.

As an afterthought, how much do these lasers cost and how much does it cost to maintain them? I'm sure they don't last forever.

[Rick-H]

Well I think I will throw my ideas about it in here. I think the laser is here to stay. Sort of like when the hand drawn pattern designers were replaced by the computer generated pattern designers. It is progress and that is about all there is to it. I have not seen the laser scroll reference before, until on the post here. In no way do I consider them a scrollsaw replacement.
I do not have a laser but would like to get one. From what I have seen in the size I am looking at I figure $10,000-$20,000 just to buy the thing. Then from some of the posts on another forum I belong to I am guessing, figuring, a $2,000+ per year to keep it running. So this is not a cheap machine and not maintance free by any stretch of the imagination.
I see it as a super tool for doing engravings on projects. One would be engraving turned pens. Another would be to engrave a scene into a box lid. These are the type of things a scrollsaw will not do. It is amazing the detail in engraving the laser can do. Right now I can't justify the cost against what I will do with it.
But I agree too that to laser cut a scrollsaw pattern and then sell it as handmade is not right. It is machine made no mater how you look at it. Is what the scrollers need to do is just be better at expalining to people why the handcrafted is worth more and is more unique. I agree the handcrafted should be worth a lot more, but the people have to be willing to pay for it.
But on the other side people seem to by furniture and everything else from the discount stores because it is cheaper. They don't seem to be ordering a lot of handcrafted better quality furniture form us woodworkers. Just seems most people are willing to accept cheap over quality. Anything good form watches to purses the good stuff has cheap knockoffs trying to cash in on the idea or design.

[JohnB]

G'day Shawn,
Here's my 2 bob's worth.
The sky's (Market) the limit mate.
The thing we have over mass produced, computer cut/generated pieces is uniqueness.

Lasers don't cut instantly and take time to set up, so typically they would be used to make a quantity of each pattern/project. This means that the item becomes "common" not only cheap.
I think that most people buy our stuff as gifts and in that slot, common aint good.
You want a gift to be as unique as it can be so, just keep on scrolling all you saw jockeys.

[Jediscroller]

To be honest, I don't quite understand what you're asking. My standard margin (or mark-up) is 30%. It would be 30% whether I created it with a scrollsaw or a laser. That's just business. The difference is that I can spend 20 hours on a single scrollsaw piece (which would sell for about $500). In 20 hours on the laser I would have 10 or more of those pieces so they would sell for about $50 a piece.
You can get a laser now for about $4000. Not all that much more than a high-end scrollsaw. Considering that woodworkers routinely spend that much on tablesaws and such a laser doesn't seem all that expensive. You could actually go cheaper with some of the laser "kits" available as well. As I said in the other thread, I'm not competing with lasers (or Walmart or Ikea or any of the cheap stuff). People who buy on price will buy that junk, those who have the means and who prefer hand-crafted quality will pay more for true handcrafted work. Folks trying to pass off laser burned stuff as handmade need to be confronted, promoters need to be informed and these folks need to be prevented from participating in hand-crafted only shows, period. There are plenty of open shows where they are free to participate, I have sold along side several in open shows it's not a competition. Folks buying from them were buying price, folks buying from me were buying hand-crafted quality.

[Scrolling Days]

Originally Posted by Jediscroller

To be honest, I don't quite understand what you're asking. ....

Originally Posted by Jediscroller

.....those who have the means and who prefer hand-crafted quality will pay more for true handcrafted work.

The second part of your quote shows what I'm trying to get at, Kevin. I'm not looking at what percent mark-up you sell your work at, I'm looking at what percent more over that of computer-made work would the average consumer be willing to spend, assuming you had a comparable end-product and the only difference is the consumer's knowledge that one is hand-made.

I guess we're all defending our work as superior, since it is made by human hands, human heart and human skill, and I agree with that one hundred percent. What I'm getting at is to have an interesting look at putting a vague dollar perspective on the whole thing.

Maybe look at it from the opposite point of view. Hand-woodcrafters will make stuff which is undoubtedly costlier than what computer-crafters make. How low can they price their product to where a consumer will say "Heck, I know it's not hand-made, but that will save me a lot of money" ? Where do you think the average customer's breaking point is?

[Jediscroller]

Quote:
"I'm not looking at what percent mark-up you sell your work at, I'm looking at what percent more over that of computer-made work would the average consumer be willing to spend, assuming you had a comparable end-product and the only difference is the consumer's knowledge that one is hand-made."

I don't think the customers are the same. Those that buy the mass-produced type stuff will likely never buy from me. These are the same folks that buy furniture from Ikea and shop at Walmart. The folks that buy from me will typically have more disposable income and are willing to pay more for the uniqueness of handcrafts. To me, it's sort of like comparing a print of a Van Gogh painting that you can buy in a store for $19.99 vs. the original Van Gogh (I know, a rather extreme example). They're totally different customers.

[tony coleman]

i thaught the purpose of this site is too promote hand crafted items with a scrollsaw,not mass production.anyway ,its not exactly feesable for everyone too go out and buy a lasercutting machine,especially in the current economic climate.i think i will stick too my scrollsaw.