Laser scroll saws

[Pajaro]

I consider laser cutting like computer generated movies... Looks good but BBBBBBLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAATTTTTT#$&* %&%$$&
Where is the talent?????????????

Now In Khalid's case, his is a router guided by a computer. I think it is aw-some, do to the fact that He build the machine from scratch. That in it self is a talent.

[NC Scroller]

I agree. No skill required. Just hit enter and presto. They might have a place in a factory where you are making thousands of the same pieces. It won't be in my shop at any price.

[GrayBeard Phil]

We, as scrollers, are not the only craft where this CNC automation affects the craft / street fair / art show circuit.

Example,, last time I was at a local craft show, a real nice lady was selling hand embroidery kitchen aprons for the ladies, and young girls. I am sure at many such local craft shows some one is selling embroidery.

However, for the commercial market like high end burger joints, there are machines that sew the restaurant's name and company logo on three button knit tee-shirts at high speed, computer driven, and automatically sew several thread colors without operator intervention (as many of 12 needles.) Again, for the commercial market. Here is a web site for one such automatic (CNC) embroidery machine:
http://www.brother.com/europe/embroidery/index.htm
Note: the web site graphic is of a machine that can deal with up to 6 pieces at a time, use up to 12 different threads and separate needles. All from a computer driven machine where the design is created.

Would it be fair for this machine to compete against the nice ladies hand sewing a flower pot on an apron? Is the above machine's output "hand-crafted?" I doubt anyone would say it is. Same with scroll sawing... Hand Crafted is not, does not, and must not be confused with "Home-Crafted by automation."

Note: Google automatic embroidery machines for a lots of links and machine makers.

Phil

[JohnB]

G'day all,
I can see exactly where Bob is coming from with the "Laser Scroll Saw".
When I first read the post, I imagined a typical scroll saw with a laser replacing the blade.

It's deceptive terminology, in my lowly opinion, and I don't like it one bit. I can see it proving being very troublesome, if a manufacturer distributed a line of laser cutters Labled "LASER SCROLL SAWS"

[WOODDULL]

Lasers are for lazy people

[Scrolling Days]

Originally Posted by WOODDULL

Lasers are for lazy people

"My name is Buck Rogers, and I resent that!"

[Powakee]

I can imagine that (presupposing I live a long natural life) before I die we'll see some kind of a "laser scroll saw." I think instead of a blade we'll have a little laser and you dial in the width/diameter of the laser - otherwise you just feed the wood through just like a regular scroll saw. The part I can also see in my mind's eye - and I guess that means the design guys & gals haven't figured out this part yet - is me not paying attention and running one or more of my fingers under the laser and doing a little finger shortening along with my neato craft show piece.

J

[Terry Jay]

They used to be called laser engravers, and do a very nice job. Before that there were a lot of things that were die-cut, like model airplane kits from the 40's and '50's. Then came the plastics and various molding techniques. Then there are pattern duplicators. And don't forget the various resin products.

It takes some artistic talent to come up with a design and a different talent to convert it to useful computer code for the laser. The laser's strength is churning out multiple identical copies of the design.

Not the same skill set needed for a scroll saw.

Sort of reminds me of the difference between the resin black bears in the gift section at Big Box and the work of the chain saw artists.

Both have a market and an audience, and there can be some crossover. After all, artists sell originals and prints, and sculptors often authorize cast copies of the originals.

SO if you had an original design and made some on the saw and some on the laser, is there a problem?

You all do beautiful work but I really doubt if you are really competing with a laser. Your mileage may vary.

Terry

[GrayBeard Phil]

Terry,
I hope you understand I am not jumping on you, I am trying to debate the points of your post. Please, please don't take anything personal about my reply. But some of what you posted really pushed a lot of buttons, and I do hope I have not in turned pushed yours.

Originally Posted by Terry Jay

..{snip}.. It takes some artistic talent to come up with a design and a different talent to convert it to useful computer code for the laser. The laser's strength is churning out multiple identical copies of the design.

Design of pattern should be a wash. Many patterns for scroll saw are sold on CD, or Emailed. Patterns from a book, or magazine, usually come with a built in limit on number of copies that can be made without further royalties.

And your 'creation of the computer code for the machine' is now automated and is just three or four computer 'point-and-clicks'. Computer software now takes care of the rest. The old Machine-Tool-Path CNC machine code generation step has been eliminated for these new laser machines.

Originally Posted by Terry Jay

...Not the same skill set needed for a scroll saw.

Exactly the point, at a craft show that has been labeled, promoted and marketed to the vendors and public customers alike as a "hand-crafted" show should be just that. Different operations to produce the products. Any competition should be on equal grounds, equal rules of marketplace, and level playing field.

If the show is listed, marketed, and allows "Home-crafted", or even if the show allows "Buy-&-Sells" (purchase products from 3rd party suppliers, usually without compliance to country of origin labeling laws) then so be it. Yes, so be it as all are aware of the rules of competition. Vendors and public are aware of what is being offered for sale. The term Public-Bizarre show, where all is allowed might be more correct descriptive to some shows.

Originally Posted by Terry Jay

Both have a market and an audience, and there can be some crossover. After all, artists sell originals and prints, and sculptors often authorize cast copies of the originals.

SO if you had an original design and made some on the saw and some on the laser, is there a problem?

Yes, there is a really HUGE and important point. John Henry cannot compete against the power tool and win in the long run. Nor can the craftsman compete against factory automation. In today's Wal-Mart mentality of the market place, price point rules; a fact of life.

Yes, both scroll saw and CNC lasers have markets and usefulness. But not at a craft-show that has been advertised to vendors as a hand-craft show. Let the CNC machines compete with their own kind, on their own level of league of play.

In your example above, Artist output (original) sells for thousands of dollars; prints cost significantly less. Cast copies of sculptor's art are also cost significantly less than original.

But scroll sawing is fundamentally a craftsmanship; and artisan-ship if you will. The artistic effort is in the pattern design. And maybe in the craftsman's selection of which pattern to be cut and on what media (wood type usually.) Craftsmanship, IMHO, is the manual skill, learned dexterity, and applied eye-hand coordination that it takes to become proficient as a scroll sawyer.

Originally Posted by Terry Jay

You all do beautiful work but I really doubt if you are really competing with a laser. Your mileage may vary. Terry

The point of the Original post: The poster WAS in direct competition with another vendor at the craft show who used automation to drive down the price of similar items.

This is a very critical distinction; automation technology vs hand-craftsmanship. Hand-craftsmanship requires manual eye-hand coordination, development of a skill (ie practice and more practice,) and a strong sense of what is, or is not, acceptable quality of one's craftsmanship. Production machine output is not considered artisan craftsmanship as it is only applied technology; yes a learning curve education of, and about, the machine tool being used but as a technologist, or technician, seldom as an artisan.

The artistic creation of the basic design should be identical, there is no special reward for using a computer's vector graphic software. Software and computer tools are just technology aids that the artist learns. The artistic creation is still the same.

Phil

PS:
Terry, again, please don't take what I have written as a personal attack on you. It was not meant to be. I was trying to address the points of your post.

[Scrolling Days]

Looks like you just got a couple new grey hairs in that beard of yours, Phil.