Shannon's Editorial

[Jediscroller]

I figured I'd start a separate thread about your editorial Shannon.

Regarding "project killers." I think regarding scrolling, it would be very difficult to pick one thing. If someone's into intarsia, the piece being fretwork would be a project killer and vic versa but it doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with either project. For me personally, it's a combination of saleability and profitibility regardless of the type of project it is. A perfect example of this is last year's intarsia ornaments from Kathy Wise. They were extremely attractive from a saleability standpoint but were very difficult to make quickly enough to make them profitable (I made several to see how long it would take me). I do realize however that the vast majority of readers are simply hobbiests and don't much care about such things. To use the most recent issue, carving is a project killer for me as it's not something I do or am interested in doing. I'm sure there are others who would say just the opposite too. Some folks will consider complexity a project killer (i.e. it's "too difficult") while others will feel just the opposite (it's "too simple" of a project). Subject matter can also be a project killer for some. I doubt many Democrats would want a pattern of Bush or many Republicans would want a pattern of Obama, hehehe. I use them as extreme examples of course. So, to sum up a rather long winded explanation, I don't think there is any one thing to call a project killer as scrolling encompasses such a broad range of interests.
Now, regarding picnics or scrollsaw shows. I was very disheartened to read that there will be no 2009 PA scrollabration on the SAW site. I know the Wooden Teddy Bear used to have one in the Northwest as well and that is no longer. Branson has ceased but based on the Texas picnic's success perhaps this one will fill the void. It's very difficult for a vendor to attend. The majority are there to make money (simple fact of life) and hopefully build a little brand awareness. I did Texas on the cheap, but even then my expenses were close to a thousand dollars. That's an awful lot of patterns to sell in 1 or 2 days. It seems folks are afraid to say so publically, but I will come out and say it. I think a lot of past scrolling "politics" have played a role in their decline as well. Folks calling vendors and telling them that they would be wasting their money to attend a picnic because a certain group of folks would be there doesn't help either scrolling or the picnic. Excluding folks from entering pieces, refusing to award ribbons just because of the pattern source, badmouthing folks, and backstabbing people have all worn on folks and it has dramatically hurt scrolling and as a result the picnics. People think that no one knows about this stuff but it gets around and eventually many, many folks are aware. Personally, the TX Picnic last year was my first and I had a blast (as I did in PA with you). As a vendor, it was a bust but for me I was there to meet other folks and enjoy the camaradarie and get to talk woodworking with like-minded people (my wife gets really tired of me trying to talk to her about woodworking). At this point, the only picnic that I'm aware of for 2009 is the Texas picnic. It would be nice if there could be regional picnics but whoever hosts it takes on an awful lot of work not to mention the tremendous financial burden and risk associated with it. Maybe having a true picnic is the answer. A simple picnic at a state park with demos and seminars and perhaps a few vendors. I know in astronomy, there are tons of vendors at astronomy star parties (picnics) but they don't pay. The overhead is minimal and it's primarily a way for folks to meet others with similar interests. I'd very much like to see something in the Northeast for myself and I'm sure folks in other parts of the country would like to see something relatively local as well. Anything that could be done to reduce vendor expenses would help bring more vendors in and having them regionally I think would greatly improve attendance.

Gees, sorry for the long-winded post!

[Gill]

A requirement for stiff egg whites puts me off any scroll saw project. A requirement for a stiff martini encourages me.

Gill

[Rick H]

I don't consider myself an expert on picnic but I have attended a few. Lets see, 2 years of Creative Woodworks, SSWS event, Saw Expo Iowa, every year of Pontiac, IL. every year at Sloan's Tenn., every year of the Wisconsin picnics. every Branson Picnic, and I think 5 times to the Pa. picnic. So maybe I have been to a few.

The statements:
"I think a lot of past scrolling "politics" have played a role in their decline as well. Folks calling vendors and telling them that they would be wasting their money to attend a picnic because a certain group of folks would be there doesn't help either scrolling or the picnic. Excluding folks from entering pieces, refusing to award ribbons just because of the pattern source, badmouthing folks, and backstabbing people have all worn on folks and it has dramatically hurt scrolling and as a result the picnics. People think that no one knows about this stuff but it gets around and eventually many, many folks are aware."
I must have missed something at the events I attended. Only one time do I remember a project not being allowed to enter a contest, and the picnic host made that decision. I can't every recall a project refused a ribbon because of its origin. I do remember being a judge at many of the events I attended. There were a lot of very nice projects entered in every event. I can remember looking over each and ever project with a very critical eye to find the best of the best to get my vote. I am sure many stood back and looked at the judge’s choices and wondered, but did they personally inspect every project entered in close detail or stand back 3 feet away and look at them. Many projects looked good from a distance, but up close showed some lack for fine detail. I feel the judges have always been fair in their decision as to the winning projects. That speck of dust in the finish, that one over cut in a fret, that tiny run in the finish, that joint that was just close, and many other fine details take a project from good to the winners circle. Anyone that thinks otherwise should look into becoming a judge. Most events are always looking for judges. Take your turn at judging and see if everyone at the event agrees with your choices.
As for vendors. True there is a big cost for the vendors to attend a show. Like Kevin sad $1000 to go, I find a cheap one to be $500 expense. Yes I go just for the fun, but the vendors look at it from a cost view. It is hard to justify the expense when you think one person is $500-$1000 and many of the vendors have 2-6 people at the booth. Then many of these vendors are a long way from the picnic location. It seems the vendors are spread out all across the country. The booth rental fee is a very small part. The vendor needs pack stuff to take, go there, set up, do the event, load up, go home, and then unload everything. What we see as a one-day event is actually about 4 days for a vendor. So the vendors weigh the cost to attend the event with what they think they can gain in sale, but also a big part is getting the exposure to the scrollers that they are there. By being at the picnic they meet many of their loyal customer in person, and meet a lot more that maybe have never done business with them before. Yes there is a lot of good will and fun attending, but it still comes down to if the vendor can justify the time and cost to attend. I would like to see all the vendors at every event, but I realize that is just not possible. I think most vendors that do attend are able to convince themselves that it was worthwhile to attend the event.
So what is there to get from attending? I enjoy meeting all the people. Finally talking to the people that I have seen on these forums. Meeting people that I have never known before in any way. You get from the event what you put into it. If you chose to go and not talk to anyone, just look and leave, then you are going to be disappointed in the event. But if you go and talk to everyone, stop at every booth and talk with the vendors, and enjoy yourself, you will find that a picnic is one of the best places to be. That is what keeps me going too as many as I can. It is amazing the people you meet, the new products and patterns you see, new techniques, new ideas, and much more. For the biggest part any scroller will talk scrolling to you all day, you just need to get the conversation started.
Now I like seeing the seminars at the events. That is a way for many to learn new techniques and ideas. We never know everything, unless you are a teenager, they will tell you they know everything. More seminars, more demonstrations at the booths that is what I would like to see at the picnics. The scrollsaw corals, where you can try some of the saws people have brought in is just great. I don't know how many times people have asked me about a technique of cutting. What easier way than to be able to walk over to a saw and show them. Don't be afraid to talk about what you are showing, I bet there will be many more listening than just the person you brought over to show. People learn from seeing, and if you can show them anything, they are willing to watch. I can stop at the coral and start cutting and have 10-15 people there in a heartbeat. The sound of the saw seems to attract them. The picnics are a place to learn, a place to see what others are doing, and a place to meet new friends. When you talk to your vendors, have you told them you are going to be at the picnic and want to see them there? If everyone ordering from a vendor told them they planned to see them there, don't you think that would help persuade that vendor to attend? It is a catch 22, more vendors, more people, but which comes first?

[Pajaro]

Keven and Rick. I think you both pretty much think the same. I my self have only been to one Picnic. Here in TX. I'm sorry to say that I messed the seminars, I should have gone to them. But being the first picnic I went to, I didn't know what to expect. I was kind of disappointed with what I did see, on the second day. But I think it was mostly my own doings. I know I should have taken in the seminars, but being a hard headed Italian, I went to the second day gathering while in a bad mood, and was not being friendly at all. Sorry about that to everyone who was there, especially Kevin and Bob D. I don't know If I will get to the Denton picnic. But I promise if I do, I will be in a better state of mind.

Shame on me.

[Shannon]

Obviously everyone will have a different "project killer" for them personally - we're just looking for ideas... For example - if you need a router to make the project. Then we know that while it's okay to have 1 or 2 articles in an issue that require a router, we need to be careful that the majority of projects do not require a router. (That's just an example - no prejudice against routers...)

Picnics can get expensive for vendors - and like Rick said - it is seldom the booth fee... It's the travel and the time. Till I buy a plane ticket, book a hotel, and figure on the time out of the office (time spent NOT editing or scouting new contributors) it really adds up quickly. There's no way I'm selling enough books or back issues to cover that cost. But we do try to look at it from the "soft benefits" side... the goodwill, getting to know our customers and their wants better, meeting potential new contributors...

Please keep feedback on both topics coming!

[Jediscroller]

I was less than clear based on the responses, hehehe. I didn't mean to infer that it was the booth fee to prevented vendors from attending. My astronomy example while poorly stated was meant that the star parties were regional in nature. They were primarily events for folks to get to meet others with similar interests as well as promote the hobby and the vendors were a bonus. I've been to a heck of lot more star parties than scrollsaw picnics from coast to coast (literally). Seminar speakers didn't get paid, they gave seminars out of their love of the hobby. I didn't attend either picnic last year for the vendors, I attended them to get to meet folks who shared an interest. I'd go to a local picnic even if there were no vendors (maybe I'm the exception here). Don't get me wrong, having vendors is kind of neat and I tried to buy a little from several to support them (Shannon can vouch for that one, hehehe) but it's nowhere near the reason I went or would go.
I forgot about the Wisconsin picnic as that's one I'd very much like to attend. It seems that the majority of scrollers and vendors are centered around that part of the country so their expenses are greatly reduced thus making it easier for them to attend.

[Gill]

Scroll saw picnics are non-existent on this side of the Pond. However, we do have communal woodworker gatherings on an ad hoc basis and these are known as bashes. It may be a matter of terminology, but bashes seem to have more appeal to men than picnics.

I've been thinking about what deters me from undertaking projects and come up with two considerations. Firstly, I always shy from projects which have imperial measurements. Although the vast majority of readers will use imperial measurements, I suspect most international readers have workshops that are configured to work in metric. Secondly, I will not cut a project which calls for woods that are not readily available in the UK.

Perhaps SSW&C might consider an international edition, specifically designed for readers like me? After all, you wouldn't notice another mag in the stable.



Gill

[greatdane2]

I don't think that a tool has that much impact on what I make from the magazine. I feel if you open that box, which it seems you have(I probably wont get the new magazine for a few weeks yet) then it could be scaled back to projects that are made with a scroll saw and nothing else.
If you started putting more patterns in that needed a bunch of exotic exspencive tools then that would be a killer for me. It seems that a lot of readers and members here are dealing with family and other things that are more important than buying tools.
And there are some projects in the magazine that I just pass on. But you guys seem to limit the projects to those that don't need too many tools. There might be a project that a reader does not have the tools to make. But if you keep going right where you are now then we can choose a new tool that can make several new projects.
We all have a list of things we want to make. we also have a list of tools that we want(need) and when we get enough projects that interest us but need a tool, we can get that tool. Wether it is a router or a belt sander, as long as we are talking about a tool that is practical and not too much money.
So my opinon is to stay about where you are. I look at Fine Woodworking magazine in the store, I dont buy it beacause I will never make anything in that magazine. They sshow beautifull projects that are way past my skill.
Reading the above posts about the picinics has been interesting. And as much as I read the posts and look at the pics people who have gone to one post, it is not practical for me. I do not think I will ever be able to go to one. $$$$. The magazine and this site are just like a picnic for me. Yes I would reather meet you guys in person and visit. But I would rather see the vendors spend money in the magazine on adds where we can all see it than do a demo for the few who get to a picnic.
That said I understand the pros like Kevin who do make a living at this game, want to see more picnics. My only income is from what comes out of my shop but I expect that like nearlly all of the magazines readers and the crew here, going to a picnic is not going to happen. We do not make enough money, so I guess we are in the hobby part of scroll sawing. But what % of us can go to a picnic?
This is getting long. Magazine is great, vendors and manufacturers should spend their money on adds and let the magazine go to monthly issues.

My 1/4 cent worth. Alan.

[JohnB]

Okeydokey, time for me to chuck my hat in the ring.

AS for the tools that Shannon mentioned, I find that the requirement for too many is a turn off.
I watch NYWS sometimes and have a bit of a chuckle at Norm showing people how to make a nice piece, while having more tools and machinery than you could poke a stick at. That has got to be turn off for those wanting to learn.

I often read in books and magazines instructions telling people to run timber through a thicknesser to a certain thickness, well if you haven't a thicknesser You'd just shut the book.

I agree with Gill, that imperial measurements are a bit of a turn of, but having said that, if there is something I really want to make, I'll use my own measurements, as I rarely follow a plan verbatim.

Perhaps putting metric equivalents in a different colour would make the mag more user friendly.

Also some "low tech" alternatives. To use Shannon's example of a router:
Place a 1/4" round over bit in the router to round over edges, if you do not have a router, you can use sandpaper, starting with 100g and finishing with 240g.

Just my 2 bobs' worth

[Janette]

What's a project killer for me? Well a couple of things...

First - the project itself has to appeal to me, both in how it's made and the finished product. I admire those of you who create those intricately cut fret work pieces - and I find them absolutely gorgeous to look at. But..for me...I have NO patience for it. I occassionally do some simple fret work pieces. To me- the fewest drill holes and cut outs to give the most detail the better. Simple and elegant. Since I do mainly intarsia- I look at a project to see if it's something that I can make for someone or would be a good seller at shows. For example- Kathy Wise's wreath is beautiful and I love cardinals - but there are no cardinals in my area so I doubt it would be something that would sell for me. I may make something like that as a gift for someone back east. The beautiful sea turtle is probably something I will try. Living near the coast and doing shows on the coast, I think this would have a greater appeal. I also need to take into account the amount of time a project would take vs how much I could sell it for. Like Kevin- some things just take too long to be practical.

Second - The tools needed to make it. If it says "table saw" anywhere in the article...forget it. I don't do table saws. I'll do band saws, jig saws, and scroll saws- but not table saws. If you have to plane something down to a certain thickness- I will probably pass on it too. I've passed on some really nice looking designs because they call for using a table saw.

Third - the clarity of the instructions. One thing I've wanted to try for awhile now are little boxes. For some stupid reason, I find them intimidating. I've read several articles in the magazines and they seem straight forward enough, but some part always flies right over my head. If I've never attempted something before, I'm the read and do each step as it's described type of person. I know things get edited for space- and one of those edited details are probably something that I need to figure it out! No fault of the magazine - that's just how I am (and probably why they need to edit what I write ). I'm probably the type that needs the book instad! Once I've made something once or twice, I can improvise, but the initial project needs to be detailed.