Looking for a Pattern - Scroll Saw Woodworking & Crafts Message Board

Marsha · 05-31-2006, 10:02 PM

Hi folks, I'm new to this forum and I hope someone here can help me out. I am looking for the pattern for American Doll furniture featured in the fall 2004 issue of Scroll Saw Workshop Magazine. Unfortunately I have lost the pattern and I have a request to make a set for a little girl's birthday.
Here's a pic of the set, the one in the magazine has only 2 pieces, I added the chair.

I can't give this set to the girl, because it belongs to my granddaughter.
If anyone has this pattern and wouldn't mind sending me a copy, please send me a pm and I'll send my email address so you can send it to me.

By the way, This looks like a great site.

Thanks for your help
Marsha

Rick-H · 05-31-2006, 10:31 PM

They show that issue is for sale yet on this site.

http://www.scrollsawer.com/articlein...&search_type=1

Rick-H · 05-31-2006, 10:54 PM

I would suggest that everyone go read this page written by a craft group.
http://www.skinnersisters.com/copyright/index.html
Especially the page " Why does infringement happen? " then down about half way to "It's not "stealing", it's "sharing". "

Marsha · 06-01-2006, 01:01 AM

WoW what a welcome.
First let me say I am not trying to steal anything, nor am I selling anything.
I have done extensive research on published patterns. It is not stealing or infringement or illegal to use a published pattern to make a project for sale. It is illegal however to sell the pattern. I use a lot of patterns from Scroll Saw Workshop Magazine for my projects. To name a few, I have scrolled several of Diana Thompson's Compound Cut Chess set featured in the summer 2003 issue & I sold 2 of them. In fact I contacted Diana to inquire about selling her chess set and she told me it is not illegal to sell the chess set, it is illegal to sell her pattern and she wished me well. I have also made several of the kids Alphabet snake puzzle featured in the Holiday 2004 issue. Another project that I sold several of is the Parrot Puzzle featured in the fall 2003 issue.
I would also like to point out that I have every issue of Scroll Saw Workshop magazine. If the publishers or editors or contributors of the magazine have a problem with me selling projects I have made from patterns published in the magazine then I suggest they contact me via email.
It was suggested to me by someone on another wood forum that I come here and post my request, they didn't think I was trying to steal or infringe on anyone, they were pretty sure someone here could help me out.
You know in Canada before I got my suscription to Scroll Saw Workshop Magazine, I was paying $8.00 per issue, and yes it is unfortunate that I lost that particular pattern insert sheet. I certainly did not intend to step on anyone's toes here.
Marsha

Woodbutcher68 · 06-01-2006, 01:29 AM

Is Evie giving Marsha the pattern or a copy of the pattern?
Is Evie selling Marsha the pattern or a copy of the pattern?
Marsha is making the set for someone else, not her granddaughter. (The picture is of the set that belongs to Marsha's granddaughter.) Is Marsha making the set to sell or give away? These are the questions that need to be answered to determine copyright infringement. Marsha did ask specifically for a copy, not an original. If somebody sent Marsha the issue with the pattern or just the original pattern, then there would be no copyright infringement. Give or sell a copy, then you are in violation.
As Rick stated, the original issue is still available.
If I buy a magazine or book and give it away with the original pattern, is that copyright infringement? I don't think so.
If I sell the same magazine or book with the original pattern, is that copyright infringement? Probably not.
If I were to make copies of the pattern or the magazine or book, and either sell them or distribute them freely, then I would be guilty of copyright infringement.
A lot of patterns and magazines state it very clearly. You are allowed to make "X" number of copies for personal use. (Personal use does not include selling or giving away the copies) If you want more copies, you are supposed to buy another pattern. I doubt if this is done.
I was given a toy pattern a year ago for my club's "Toys for Kids" program. There were 5 pieces on the sheet. I made copies of the pattern for club members and a couple of people made a few pieces. I personally cut out and sanded over 330 pieces from 3/4" pine, so I made over 70 copies of the original. We didn't make any to sell at craft shows or for personal use. Because I explained that the finished products were to be given to needy kids for Christmas, I was given permission make and distribute copies by the designer. I also let the designer know how many were made and how much the donation was appreciated. If I had done this without the designer's permission, then I would have been guilty of infringement in the eyes of the law, even though it was for charity.
I can understand the designer's point of view, they design patterns and sell them to make money, just like a lot of us use the patterns to make items to sell.
Making copies to sell or give away without permission is stealing, whether it's scrollsaw patterns or music.

That's my $.02.

Woodbutcher68 · 06-01-2006, 01:58 AM

Marsha was typing her reply while I was typing mine, I'm just a little slower!
Welcome to the site and I don't think you stepped on anyone's toes.
This issue of infringement has come up before and will probably be back again. Not everyone understands exactly what infringement is, but you've done your homework on it.
Since Rick does design and sell patterns, I understand his point of view and why he posted what he did.
The internet makes pattern (and file) sharing a much bigger problem than it used to be. Look at the Napster problem a few years ago. If a company or person invests time and money to develop original software, music or a scrollsaw pattern for resale, they sure don't want other people making copies and reselling them or giving them away. If they weren't in it for the money, it would be freeware. Unfortunately alot of people either don't realize this or just don't care.
Look at all the imitation clothing, cd's, dvd's, watches, etc being sold. All of it is sold at lower prices than the originals could be made for and most of it is being made overseas, thus stealing from the original designers, artists, or manufacturers.
Even though imitation is the best form of flattery, I wouldn't want somebody getting rich off my invention or original design.
Enjoy the site!

Marsha · 06-01-2006, 04:36 PM

I really can't believe the crapp that this simple request has generated.

Evie, who is Bob, that you will ask for permission to send me the pattern, the pattern belongs to Dennis Simmons, so if you're going to ask anyone maybe you should ask him.

Marsha

Rick-H · 06-01-2006, 04:50 PM

As has been stated the copyright laws have been discussed on many of the forums. Is it that people just don't care or that they never read any of those posts. It has been explained so many times that I would think that people would start to understand the basics. If the pattern is not your design it is copyrighted by the designer and only that person has the right to sell or give it away.

Evie if you feel I attacked you it is because I try to get accross to everyone when I see these total disreguards for the copyright laws being broken it just gets me upset. The laws are the laws and need to be followed. When you are breaking a law someone, maybe the police or judge will tell you about it.

As stated in all law, ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking the law.

Shannon · 06-01-2006, 05:08 PM

Hello All,

Copyright issues are certainly a touchy subject. It is true that sharing patterns or selling them is a violation of the copyright. It is not true that you cannot make a project from a pattern and sell it. In fact, we encourage that. If you make two or three projects to sell at a craft show - great! If it's a big hit and you plan to make 20 or 30 for the next show - it's a good idea to get the permission of the pattern designer.

It seems to me Marsha already purchased the pattern initially. In this case, I have no problem supplying a copy of the pattern to her. (Next time - make a master copy and file it away for future use!) Marsha - if you can let me know your name and address, I will verify your subscription and send you a replacment pattern. You can email me at Shannon@FoxChapelPublishing.com.

I agree that we need to be ethical and sometimes that requires being copyright police, but keep in mind that we are all human and make mistakes (like using the original pattern).

Rolf · 06-01-2006, 09:09 PM

WOW that was fun.!
Shannon, Nice job of diffussing the issue.

05-31-2006, 10:02 PM	#1
Marsha Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Hamilton Ontario Posts: 1,401	Looking for a Pattern Hi folks, I'm new to this forum and I hope someone here can help me out. I am looking for the pattern for American Doll furniture featured in the fall 2004 issue of Scroll Saw Workshop Magazine. Unfortunately I have lost the pattern and I have a request to make a set for a little girl's birthday. Here's a pic of the set, the one in the magazine has only 2 pieces, I added the chair. I can't give this set to the girl, because it belongs to my granddaughter. If anyone has this pattern and wouldn't mind sending me a copy, please send me a pm and I'll send my email address so you can send it to me. By the way, This looks like a great site. Thanks for your help Marsha

05-31-2006, 10:31 PM	#2
Rick-H Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Grimes, Iowa Posts: 295	Doll Furniture They show that issue is for sale yet on this site. http://www.scrollsawer.com/articlein...&search_type=1

05-31-2006, 10:54 PM	#3
Rick-H Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Grimes, Iowa Posts: 295	Pattern Sharing I would suggest that everyone go read this page written by a craft group. http://www.skinnersisters.com/copyright/index.html Especially the page " Why does infringement happen? " then down about half way to "It's not "stealing", it's "sharing". "

06-01-2006, 01:29 AM	#5
Woodbutcher68 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Hammond, IN Posts: 871	Is Evie giving Marsha the pattern or a copy of the pattern? Is Evie selling Marsha the pattern or a copy of the pattern? Marsha is making the set for someone else, not her granddaughter. (The picture is of the set that belongs to Marsha's granddaughter.) Is Marsha making the set to sell or give away? These are the questions that need to be answered to determine copyright infringement. Marsha did ask specifically for a copy, not an original. If somebody sent Marsha the issue with the pattern or just the original pattern, then there would be no copyright infringement. Give or sell a copy, then you are in violation. As Rick stated, the original issue is still available. If I buy a magazine or book and give it away with the original pattern, is that copyright infringement? I don't think so. If I sell the same magazine or book with the original pattern, is that copyright infringement? Probably not. If I were to make copies of the pattern or the magazine or book, and either sell them or distribute them freely, then I would be guilty of copyright infringement. A lot of patterns and magazines state it very clearly. You are allowed to make "X" number of copies for personal use. (Personal use does not include selling or giving away the copies) If you want more copies, you are supposed to buy another pattern. I doubt if this is done. I was given a toy pattern a year ago for my club's "Toys for Kids" program. There were 5 pieces on the sheet. I made copies of the pattern for club members and a couple of people made a few pieces. I personally cut out and sanded over 330 pieces from 3/4" pine, so I made over 70 copies of the original. We didn't make any to sell at craft shows or for personal use. Because I explained that the finished products were to be given to needy kids for Christmas, I was given permission make and distribute copies by the designer. I also let the designer know how many were made and how much the donation was appreciated. If I had done this without the designer's permission, then I would have been guilty of infringement in the eyes of the law, even though it was for charity. I can understand the designer's point of view, they design patterns and sell them to make money, just like a lot of us use the patterns to make items to sell. Making copies to sell or give away without permission is stealing, whether it's scrollsaw patterns or music. That's my $.02. __________________ Fred There's a fine line between woodworking and insanity, I'm just not sure which side of the line I'm on! Last edited by Woodbutcher68; 06-01-2006 at 01:40 AM.

06-01-2006, 01:58 AM	#6
Woodbutcher68 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Hammond, IN Posts: 871	Marsha was typing her reply while I was typing mine, I'm just a little slower! Welcome to the site and I don't think you stepped on anyone's toes. This issue of infringement has come up before and will probably be back again. Not everyone understands exactly what infringement is, but you've done your homework on it. Since Rick does design and sell patterns, I understand his point of view and why he posted what he did. The internet makes pattern (and file) sharing a much bigger problem than it used to be. Look at the Napster problem a few years ago. If a company or person invests time and money to develop original software, music or a scrollsaw pattern for resale, they sure don't want other people making copies and reselling them or giving them away. If they weren't in it for the money, it would be freeware. Unfortunately alot of people either don't realize this or just don't care. Look at all the imitation clothing, cd's, dvd's, watches, etc being sold. All of it is sold at lower prices than the originals could be made for and most of it is being made overseas, thus stealing from the original designers, artists, or manufacturers. Even though imitation is the best form of flattery, I wouldn't want somebody getting rich off my invention or original design. Enjoy the site! __________________ Fred There's a fine line between woodworking and insanity, I'm just not sure which side of the line I'm on!

06-01-2006, 01:01 AM	#4
Marsha Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Hamilton Ontario Posts: 1,401	WoW what a welcome. First let me say I am not trying to steal anything, nor am I selling anything. I have done extensive research on published patterns. It is not stealing or infringement or illegal to use a published pattern to make a project for sale. It is illegal however to sell the pattern. I use a lot of patterns from Scroll Saw Workshop Magazine for my projects. To name a few, I have scrolled several of Diana Thompson's Compound Cut Chess set featured in the summer 2003 issue & I sold 2 of them. In fact I contacted Diana to inquire about selling her chess set and she told me it is not illegal to sell the chess set, it is illegal to sell her pattern and she wished me well. I have also made several of the kids Alphabet snake puzzle featured in the Holiday 2004 issue. Another project that I sold several of is the Parrot Puzzle featured in the fall 2003 issue. I would also like to point out that I have every issue of Scroll Saw Workshop magazine. If the publishers or editors or contributors of the magazine have a problem with me selling projects I have made from patterns published in the magazine then I suggest they contact me via email. It was suggested to me by someone on another wood forum that I come here and post my request, they didn't think I was trying to steal or infringe on anyone, they were pretty sure someone here could help me out. You know in Canada before I got my suscription to Scroll Saw Workshop Magazine, I was paying $8.00 per issue, and yes it is unfortunate that I lost that particular pattern insert sheet. I certainly did not intend to step on anyone's toes here. Marsha

06-01-2006, 04:36 PM	#7
Marsha Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Hamilton Ontario Posts: 1,401	I really can't believe the crapp that this simple request has generated. Evie, who is Bob, that you will ask for permission to send me the pattern, the pattern belongs to Dennis Simmons, so if you're going to ask anyone maybe you should ask him. Marsha

06-01-2006, 04:50 PM	#8
Rick-H Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Grimes, Iowa Posts: 295	Copyrights As has been stated the copyright laws have been discussed on many of the forums. Is it that people just don't care or that they never read any of those posts. It has been explained so many times that I would think that people would start to understand the basics. If the pattern is not your design it is copyrighted by the designer and only that person has the right to sell or give it away. Evie if you feel I attacked you it is because I try to get accross to everyone when I see these total disreguards for the copyright laws being broken it just gets me upset. The laws are the laws and need to be followed. When you are breaking a law someone, maybe the police or judge will tell you about it. As stated in all law, ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking the law.

06-01-2006, 05:08 PM	#9
Shannon Editorial Manager Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 361	Pattern Request Hello All, Copyright issues are certainly a touchy subject. It is true that sharing patterns or selling them is a violation of the copyright. It is not true that you cannot make a project from a pattern and sell it. In fact, we encourage that. If you make two or three projects to sell at a craft show - great! If it's a big hit and you plan to make 20 or 30 for the next show - it's a good idea to get the permission of the pattern designer. It seems to me Marsha already purchased the pattern initially. In this case, I have no problem supplying a copy of the pattern to her. (Next time - make a master copy and file it away for future use!) Marsha - if you can let me know your name and address, I will verify your subscription and send you a replacment pattern. You can email me at Shannon@FoxChapelPublishing.com. I agree that we need to be ethical and sometimes that requires being copyright police, but keep in mind that we are all human and make mistakes (like using the original pattern).

06-01-2006, 09:09 PM	#10
Rolf Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bellport, LI New York Posts: 3,093	WOW that was fun.! Shannon, Nice job of diffussing the issue. __________________ Rolf RBI G4 Hawk, Delta SS350 Philosophy "I don't know that I can't, therefore I can" Proud Member of the Long Island Scrollsaw Association

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode